Waaargh!!!

[rimturse]

*pant pant pant*
I've been without internet for 3 days! Utterly frustrating - especially when you run an internet shop.

But it did give me the time to read a book, watch 2 movies, go to a birthday and attend a 7 hours course of "Packbonding" with Lia.

"Packbonding"
While the theory was sound and gave me new inspiration on how to train Lia, and while the trainer and I agreed on many theoretical things, such as correcting your pet when it's deliberately disobedient*, the packbonding principle involved a significant amount of physical correction - significant, which is very surprising considering that Scandinavia is the center of modern dog training. I think it speaks volumes, when the trainer was actually snapped by one of the dogs. Lia and I tried it out a bit, but I quickly reached my domina saturation point and when Lia started to get a little upset about it as well, we called it a day. Continued the course, but used our own methods that didn't involve causing anyone pain or discomfort - that was frowned upon, but Lia is my dog and I say what she has to put up with and what not, which is actually what makes me a good packleader to her.

Also, while the trainer's dogs were obedient, they were not more obedient than I expect Lia to be once she has their age (4 years old and 6 years old) - the difference being her dogs were obedient at a much earlier age, and that she more or less dictates their whole day and controls their every move. She said it best herself, I think, when she said "my dogs are never truly given free time".

Personally, I much prefer giving my pets a little space. Yes, there are rules, yes they must be respectful and adhere to me, but I don't mind a bit of youthful exuberance or exuberance, initiative or playfulness in general. Nothing wrong with a bit of spunk, as long as it doesn't become insolence. And no, I don't believe every misstep is your pet flipping you the bird, mostly it's not fully knowing what's expected of it or simply lack of self-control.

To be fair, she did tell people to watch their dogs and never push them beyond their intimidation level, but the practise level didn't have me convinced.

C was worried that I'd made sarcastic smart-arsed comments, but I was a good girl and held back, anyway the other dog owners just had to look at the way I handled Lia to notice that I probably didn't agree 100% with the training methods shown, and Lia was actually one of the better behaved dogs there.

________________________
* Lia gets a hard "no!" and maybe a growl from me, which does the trick.

Comments

[mnfaure.livejournal.com]

Poor Lia. I hope the interlude doesn't throw her for a serious loop.

[frigg.livejournal.com]

Ah, I stopped way before that. I know my dog. :)
She's quite her usual harebrained self, but let's see how it goes at the vet tomorrow.

[mnfaure.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I almost added "but I'm sure you called it quits before she got too confused and started thinking, 'Wh are you and what have you done with my May?'"

[rhiamon.livejournal.com]

I'm not a dog owner, but my sister-in-law's family has 2 labs and they NEVER "physically correct" (correct me if I'm wrong, but does this involve striking the dog - smack on the nose or hind-quarters sort of thing?) They've trained much like you have - by responding the way the mother might - with a sharp 'No' (a mum dog would sharply bark, I reckon) - and lots of eye contact, hand signals, facial expressions, voice tone, etc. Their dogs are beautifully behaved. Although they are allowed to be rambunctious, if they get out of hand, an "Oi!" will get their attention and they will stop what they're doing and look at you for further instructions! They are so well trained that they see us as senior members of the pack, even though we only visit once a year, and they will respond to our commands as readily as they do the immediate family. So, I think you're doing right by Lia - she'll understand vocalizations better than 'physical correction'.

[frigg.livejournal.com]

The method of physical correction was to grab the dog right behind the shoulders, I settled for a poke, though. The trainer did take Lia to lead her through the door a few times (she likes to bounce through the door), but I quickly took her back when Lia became uncomfortable.

There are very few situations where I will physically correct a dog, and I doubt it will ever be neccessary with Lia, also I don't believe true respect comes from physical corrections - on the contrary. You might end up with something that looks like respect, but it's probably more based on fear.

Sounds like your sister-in-law's family got the right idea. :)

[darkspires.livejournal.com]

Great that you are back on line. It is the pits when the service goes down.

As for the 'packbonding' instructor I would probably like to bar her from having pets. She is talking out of her ass about bonding through pain. She should just look at how a pack of wolves behaves to understand pack bonding. The alpha wolf is the natural leader because he is the strongest, the smartest and the bravest and he will stand in the forefront when the pack is attacked. He does not gain this position by periodically going around wapping his pack with the equivallent of a 2x4. His body language and vocalisms are enough. Sometimes he is challenged by a young male for the leadership and when the fight is over, it is over. The pack is never about leading through pain. I think you were very restrained for not saying anything and good for you that you showed by example what you thought of the technique, if it can be called that.

If I catch one of my cats eating one of my indoor plants, I am not going to beat the wretched animal while explaining that I am doing this because the plant might make the culprit sick and I don't like cleaning up barf. The cat won't understand why I a hurting it, or associate the pain with anything other than me going off the loop. On the other hand, if I roar out the cat's name with a NO! behind it, the animal will stop what it is doing and take off to hide until it thinks I have forgotten it has been bad. It will also take off at light speed if I happen to walk into a room and it is indulging itself again, thinking my back was turned, before I even say anything. Noise involving simple commands and body language are more than enough as you know.

As for never giving a pet free time, the person needs to be locked up. All thinking creatures need to have fun. I bet her dogs didn't have any personality. Where is the companion factor without the personality? Where is the love?

[frigg.livejournal.com]

*nods*

Exactly, I've studied canine pack structure and body language and the alpha wolf doesn't go around controlling the other pack members slightest move and the others are not constantly looking to the alpha for guidance. Also, the bully rarely becomes alpha. I saw a program with a family of chimpanzees where the bully did manage to take the alpha position, but he was killed shortly after by a joint effort from the weaker chimps.

The only time I would really physically correct a dog was to react to a direct challenge - and then only if it was my own dog. I had to do it once with my old dog, but Lia doesn't have that kind of personality at all, she's always doing her best to please me, her only problem is lack of self-control and this will come with age.

And yes, I want a friend and a companion - not a robot.

[(Anonymous)]

I smack Picolo now and then with a roll of newspaper when he doesnt listen to verbal commands. But I guess I am bit of a hippie. I simply let him be a dog. If i wanted something that follows commands I would have bought a robot. I let him have his own playtime, the only training he has has are the basic, sit, stand, lie, stay, no bark and walk. And i just take care to socialise him a lot with other dogs and humans so he never bites. He does the occassional show chewing and jumping madly, but he is puppy and i let him be.

[(Anonymous)]

oops..that was me- June

[frigg.livejournal.com]

Basics are good. I know of many dogs that don't have those basics down. :)
Lia, for example, finds walking pointless. Why walk when you can run? So we're still working on that one. :)

[pingdk aka patti (from livejournal.com)]

Hehe - I have two that are FULL of youthful exuberance - and more than just a bit of spunk! We took both of them to basic obedience and while we'd love for them to be better at certain things, we love their personalities and we love laughing with them and their goofiness. A neighbor has a lab that is so well trained it just always looks so sad. That poor pup is just dying to play - you can see it in her eyes every time we pass the house.

[frigg.livejournal.com]

Exactly. It's a balance, you want a well trained dog, but not one that's completely under your thumb.